Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 09:59:57 +0200
Reply-To: Andre Wielki <wielki@INED.FR>
Sender: "SAS(r) Discussion" <SAS-L@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
From: Andre Wielki <wielki@INED.FR>
Subject: Re: Notes from SAS Global Forum
In-Reply-To: <v2z129a50e1004231951k6115d498od9b034a2dc408cee@mail.gmail.com>
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Reading this monday morning the contributions of the WE
i confirm that the list is since a long time splitted in two
this discussion in on the listserv side of SAS-L (as Art is namming it)
and unknown on the comp.sas side
nevertheless
a contribution of xlr82sas has recently take place 10 days ago and i
forward it
as he presents an opinion about DM and EG
> SOAPBOX ON
>
> I hope to influence some SAS programmers to consider R for Graphics/
> Statistics/Interface to EXCEL.... Also if Enterprise Guide becomes the
> only editor that SAS will enhance, it may be better to use a R IDE in
> the future and run your SAS code under the R IDE, sending SAS programs
> to the server and retrieving SAS log and lists. Gradually you may find
> yourself doing more and more in R as SAS moves toward SAS-SAP(editors
> without function keys or command lines, metadata servers, project
> files in zip files, loss of window functionality).
>
> I have decided not to suggest any improvements to the SAS editor,
> because all improvements will only be made in EG. I remember l asking
> SAS for X, XX and flip functionality for the old editor years ago,
> what they did was add inferior similar functionality to the enhanced
> editor(enhanced editor has no prefix area) and not the old editor. I
> regret showing how you may be able to run SCL in EG, because I think
> it took 1 millesecond for SAS to thow a million dollars on the problem
> and enable EG to run SCL. I wonder when EG will support the datastep
> debugger?
>
> I am aslo concerned about SGF becoming a marketing tool for SAS. There
> seems to be a lot of confusion about SAS stategic direction. I have no
> problem with SAS providing tools for non-programmers and IS/IT
> staffs, ie EG, metatdata servers, project files, DI integration
> studio.... But SAS should make it clear that these tools will
> negatively impact an advanced programmers productivity and
> programmers need client and server functionality.
>
> SOAPBOX OFF
>
>
>
Andre
Le 24/04/2010 04:51, Joe Whitehurst a écrit :
> As I understand matters now, EG does not support either of the following two
> major components of SAS.
>
>
>
>> - Ability to debug data steps.
>> Not entirely sure what you mean by this, but you can run highlighted
>> sections of code in EG just like you can in DM.
>>
>>
> Definition: The DATA Step Debugger
> The DATA step debugger is part of Base SAS software and consists of windows
> and a
> group of commands. By issuing commands, you can execute DATA step statements
> one
> by one and pause to display the resulting variable values in a window. By
> observing the
> results that are displayed, you can determine where the logic error lies.
> Because the
> debugger is interactive, you can repeat the process of issuing commands and
> observing
> the results as many times as needed in a single debugging session. To invoke
> the
> debugger, add the DEBUG option to the DATA statement and execute the
> program.
> The DATA step debugger enables you to perform the following tasks:
> execute statements one by one or in groups
> bypass execution of one or more statements
> suspend execution at selected statements, either in each iteration of
> DATA step
> statements or on a condition you specify, and resume execution on command
> monitor the values of selected variables and suspend execution at the
> point a
> value changes
> display the values of variables and assign new values to them
> display the attributes of variables
> receive help for individual debugger commands
> assign debugger commands to function keys
> use the macro facility to generate customized debugger commands.
>
>
>>
>>
>
>> - Ability to use AF programs (GUI).
>> Sorry, I don't know what this is.
>>
>
> What Is SAS/AF Software?
> SAS/AF software provides a set of application development tools to help you
> create
> customized applications. With an interactive development environment and a
> rich set of
> object-oriented classes, you can rapidly develop and deploy portable
> applications that
> take advantage of other SAS software products.
> The SAS/AF development environment enables you to take advantage of features
> that are offered by graphics display devices and to develop graphical user
> interfaces
> with a visual, frame-based approach. See “About the SAS/AF Development
> Environment” on page 83 for more information.
> The built-in functionality of SAS/AF components is extended through SAS
> Component Language (SCL) programs. You can write object-oriented SCL
> programs for
> your applications, or use SCL to implement methods for your components
>
>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 11:57 AM, Jack Hamilton<jfh@stanfordalumni.org
>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>
>>> Did the birdie explain why they have not made EG a functional replacement
>>> for the Display Manager, or if they plan to do so?
>>>
>>> Missing:
>>>
>>> - Ability to debug data steps.
>>>
>>> - Ability to view log while program is running.
>>>
>>> - Ability to prompt user for information.
>>>
>>> - Ability to use AF programs (GUI).
>>>
>>>
>>> It doesn't really matter to me whether I use EG or DM, as long as
>>>
>> whatever
>>
>>> tool they give me can do what I want it to do. But for now, EG is
>>>
>> missing
>>
>>> too much functionality.
>>>
>>> And if .Net and C# are so great and make programming so easy, why don't
>>> they recode the Display Manager as well?
>>>
>>> And I don't think that the primary reason for recent product delays has
>>> been development speed - it's been the decision to emphasis SAS Solutions
>>> over Foundation SAS, and to make the base product wait for Solutions to
>>> catch up rather than having the Solutions run on back versions of SAS.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Jack Hamilton
>>> jfh@alumni.stanford.org
>>> Caelum non animum mutant qui trans mare currunt.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Apr 21, 2010, at 8:15 , Alan Churchill wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Full disclosure, part of the info is from birdies, part from me. The
>>>>
>>> wording is all mine.
>>>
>>>> =================================================================
>>>>
>>>> The future of DM is written: it is deprecated.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, you do get to keep it but it will be deprecated opening up the
>>>>
>> very
>>
>>> real possibility that it will go away at some point. However, DDE is
>>>
>> still
>>
>>> in Office despite being deprecated for a long, long time. My guess is
>>>
>> that
>>
>>> DM will be around for a long time as well. Newer products that are
>>> server-based will NOT have DM available.
>>>
>>>> For EG 4.3, the new editor is coded in C# and runs on WPF. However, the
>>>>
>>> code logic was lifted from DM so you should have what you want. I want to
>>> see programming templates for EG and have expressed that desire to SAS
>>>
>> R&D
>>
>>> so we concur. For those who do not know about WPF, this is a godsend for
>>> future functionality in the editor. It is also, ding ding ding, the same
>>> code base that Silverlight uses. EG on the web? EG on your mobile
>>>
>> devices?
>>
>>> Your editor and code available from an airport kiosk or even your set-top
>>> box on your TV (Silverlight 4 supports that. Just announced.)
>>>
>>>> I saw an example at a Microsoft convention a few years ago where they
>>>>
>> had
>>
>>> some particular functionality under older technology that took 20,000
>>>
>> lines
>>
>>> of code. They worked on adding it to .NET and, over time, they changed
>>>
>> the
>>
>>> 20,000 lines of code into 3. Microsoft has bet everything on .NET, lots
>>>
>> of
>>
>>> companies are tied into the ecosystem, lots of code samples exist, etc.
>>>
>> Now
>>
>>> SAS can either use its resources to enhance functionality in, say, a code
>>> module with 20,000 lines of code or they can move forward and use the
>>>
>> .NET
>>
>>> way which will save them a ton of labor. Faster product releases, more
>>> functionality, more up-to-date, faster QA cycles, no memory leaks, better
>>> editors, etc. Toss in the little bit of happiness that your MFC classes
>>>
>> may
>>
>>> not work in a newer environment (Windows 7, RDC, etc.) and you have to
>>>
>> make
>>
>>> a call as to when a migration happens. SAS has made that call.
>>>
>>>> Alan
>>>>
>>>> Alan Churchill
>>>> Savian
>>>> Work: 719-687-5954
>>>> Cell: 719-310-4870
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Mary [mailto:mlhoward@avalon.net]
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 8:51 AM
>>>> To: Alan Churchill
>>>> Cc: SAS-L@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>>> Subject: Re: Notes from SAS Global Forum
>>>>
>>>> Yes, but for SAS Institute not to make needed improvements to DM is
>>>>
>> very
>>
>>> similar to tossing it. There's much in it already that desparately need
>>> improvement and that seems very antiquated, and programmers may be
>>>
>> "pushed"
>>
>>> over to EG if the pricing structure to companies makes it more favorable
>>>
>> for
>>
>>> companies to install EG than DM; so there is a very real possibility that
>>> programmers will not get to keep their DM even if they want to (similar
>>>
>> to
>>
>>> the line that was repeated during the health care debate "if you like
>>>
>> your
>>
>>> health insurance you will get to keep it", where the reality for most
>>>
>> people
>>
>>> is that it is where someone is employed that determines their health
>>> insurance coverage, and if they change employers, they do not get to keep
>>> their previous health insurance). Thus it is whether SAS Institute is
>>> going to push companies via its pricing towards EG, as it is doing with
>>> education, that will determine the future of DM.
>>>
>>>> But it is very dissapointing that SI has apparently decided not to fix
>>>>
>>> the problems with Display Manager since it is the platform that most SAS
>>> programmers use to program in, and thus it is not supporting this
>>> constituency.
>>>
>>>> Yes, getting an environment for the programmers over in EG (which I
>>>>
>>> haven't used) if they want us to move over there would then be essential.
>>>
>>>> -Mary
>>>>
>>>> --- alan.churchill@SAVIAN.NET wrote:
>>>>
>>>> From: Alan Churchill<alan.churchill@SAVIAN.NET>
>>>> To: SAS-L@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>>> Subject: Re: Notes from SAS Global Forum
>>>> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 18:42:57 -0600
>>>>
>>>> There are major gaps in understanding. First of all, as I have stated
>>>>
>>> numerous times, DM is not going away. That is pretty simple and
>>> straightforward. It just will not have new development or, if any, it
>>>
>> will
>>
>>> be minimal.
>>>
>>>> EG uses components of DM inside of it. The program editor, for example,
>>>>
>>> is DM. To say DM was ignored and tossed is not correct.
>>>
>>>> EG was built as a tool for Windows users to use w/o having to have SAS
>>>>
>>> installed on a desktop. Its origins go way back. I saw it in an early
>>> incarnation 10-12 years ago. Work may have started on it before the
>>>
>> Enhanced
>>
>>> Editor but I am a fuzzy on the exact dates.
>>>
>>>> EG, currently, is mostly built on .NET which is much easier to work
>>>>
>> with
>>
>>> than MFC (its original base) or AF. It is natural for SAS to move away
>>>
>> from
>>
>>> a hodge-podge of stuff that AF and MFC encompassed and move toward .NET
>>> which is an integrated framework. I also confirmed that parts of EG are
>>>
>> now
>>
>>> moving over to WPF which offers some really exciting possibilities.
>>>
>>>> If you are a SAS programmer today and want DM, you need Base SAS
>>>>
>>> installed. That is not feasible for most companies.
>>>
>>>> Having Windows apps on the .NET Framework using WPF and other .NET
>>>>
>>> technologies just makes perfect sense. It will lead to faster dev times,
>>> easier integration, stronger tool bases, etc. You see that in EG, AMO,
>>>
>> and
>>
>>> JMP right now. However, if DM is what you know and love, there is no
>>>
>> reason
>>
>>> to leave. You will miss out on the cool features of EG but that is a
>>> personal choice.
>>>
>>>> SAS birdies, please correct me if I missed some of the nuances/history
>>>>
>>> here. I think the above is a fair representation.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Alan
>>>>
>>>> Alan Churchill
>>>> Savian
>>>> Work: 719-687-5954
>>>> Cell: 719-310-4870
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Mary [mailto:mlhoward@AVALON.NET]
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 10:01 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: Notes from SAS Global Forum
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I think I understand what you are trying to say- let me try
>>>>
>> stating
>>
>>> it in better English-
>>>
>>>> ****
>>>> In order for SAS to compete against SPSS, which for a long time had
>>>>
>>> hidden its code and had everything in menus, SAS first developed Analyst
>>> within Display Manager, before putting its focus on Enterprise Guide.
>>>
>>>> They were developing First Insight (a pale copy of JMP) before
>>>>
>> supressing
>>
>>> it, and now present parts of it in separate products such as SAS IML
>>>
>> Studio
>>
>>> and JMP (which is now more accepted by Goodnight than before).
>>>
>>>> I've [Andre says] never seen SAS offering integration for the same
>>>>
>> price
>>
>>> of a supplementatal product, but now that Linux and R are present, they
>>> decided that rather than building a simple free direct access to R, that
>>> they would construct IML Studio, a separate product with a separate
>>>
>> license.
>>
>>>> *****
>>>>
>>>> Interesting thoughts- perhaps the idea was making income on all these
>>>>
>>> separate products with the idea that people would get multiples, whereas
>>>
>> now
>>
>>> there is a need to integrate Display Manager with Enterprise Guide, which
>>> seems difficult to do since they Enterprise Guide has grown on its own
>>> without regard to Display Manager.
>>>
>>>> Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> -Mary
>>>>
>>>> --- wielki@ined.fr wrote:
>>>>
>>>> From: Andre Wielki<wielki@ined.fr>
>>>> To: mlhoward@avalon.net
>>>> Subject: Re: Notes from SAS Global Forum
>>>> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 16:53:47 +0200
>>>>
>>>> Mary
>>>> The reason was SPSS which has since a long time everything in menus
>>>>
>>> (hiding the code) so first they develop Analyst inside the DM before
>>> putting the scope on EG
>>>
>>>> the same proceess in matter of internal concurrence (sas-jmp) They
>>>>
>> were
>>
>>> developping first insight (a pale copy of jmp) before suppressing it in
>>>
>> the
>>
>>> future and presenting now parts in separate products
>>>
>>>> sas iml studio and JMP (now more accepted by Goodnight than before)
>>>>
>>>> Finally i never saw since years SAS doing a gift in making integration
>>>>
>>> for the same price of the supplemental product But now that Linux and R
>>>
>> are
>>
>>> present, they decide in place of building a simple free direct access to
>>>
>> R ,
>>
>>> to construct the iml studio, a separate product with a separate licence.
>>>
>>>> IMHO
>>>>
>>>> Andre
>>>>
>>>> Le 20/04/2010 15:53, Mary a écrit :
>>>>
>>>>> We were just discussing this; the major problem with this is that SAS
>>>>>
>>> seems to want to make SAS programmers make a huge jump from Display
>>>
>> Manager
>>
>>> over to Enterprise Guide with barely any warning or preparation for this.
>>>
>>>>> Does anyone know anything about the history of Enterprise Guide? In
>>>>>
>>> particular, why was there a decision to make an entirely new product
>>>
>> rather
>>
>>> than developing the EG features within Display Manager, if the long term
>>> objective was to abandon Display Manager? Or was no thought given to the
>>> SAS Developers at all?
>>>
>>>>> -Mary
>>>>>
>>>>> --- Jack.Hamilton@KP.ORG wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Jack.Hamilton@KP.ORG
>>>>> To: SAS-L@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>>>> Subject: Notes from SAS Global Forum
>>>>> Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 18:20:40 -0700
>>>>>
>>>>> Not in any particular order:
>>>>>
>>>>> - SAS is pushing Enterprise Guide over SAS for Windows Display Manager
>>>>>
>>> as the primary interface for users. In the EG 4.3 code editor, there
>>>
>> will
>>
>>> code completion and context sensitive help. This will be very helpful.
>>>
>> The
>>
>>> person I talked to said that this would not be put into the SAS for
>>>
>> Windows
>>
>>> Enhanced Editor.
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> André WIELKI
>>>> INED (Institut National d'Etudes Démographiques)
>>>> Service Informatique
>>>> 133 Boulevard Davout 75980 Paris Cedex 20
>>>> mél : wielki@ined.fr tél : 33 (0) 1 56 06 21 54
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
--
André WIELKI
INED (Institut National d'Etudes Démographiques)
Service Informatique
133 Boulevard Davout 75980 Paris Cedex 20
mél : wielki@ined.fr tél : 33 (0) 1 56 06 21 54
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